From: "Joseph E. Houle" <jehoule@worldnet.att.net>
To: <luke@scruznet.com>
Subject: marin mersenne
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:41:47 -0500
Dear Luke,
Congratulations on your Marin Mersenne website. Mersenne,however, was not
a Jesuit. He was a member of a now very obscure religious community known
as "Minims." They were very popular in 16-17th century France and although
following a very austere life-style, they were generally free to pursue
their own interests. Thus Mersenne carried out many experiments in the
physics of sound. The French scientists of his day -Pascal,
Descartes,Fermat, etc. met periodically at his residence and thus formed a
prototype of the French and, later, London (Royal) scientific socities.
His vast correspondence ,in effect, constitutes one of the first scientific
journals. Far from being an inquisitor, Mersenne favored free interchange
of scientific results and counselled Descartes on how to avoid trouble with
the authorities. He disliked Fludd because the latter reminded him of
those who tended to defraud school-boys when he was a student at LaFleche.
Mersenne called all these people "magiciens" whom he saw as the very
opposite of those who relied on scientific measurement. By contemporary
accounts, Mersenne was a very amiable person much interested in scientific
progress. The "Dict. of Scientific Biography" has an authoritative article
on him. Good luck with your interests.
Regards,Joe.
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 16:25:45 -0800
To: "Joseph E. Houle" <jehoule@worldnet.att.net>
From: Luther Welsh
Subject: Re: marin mersenne
Hi Joe.
Thanks for a great email!
At 03:41 PM 11/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Mersenne,however, was not a Jesuit. He was a member of a now very obscure
>religious community known as "Minims."
I was under the (false?) impression that the Minims were Jesuits. There
are also some "Minims" associated with Notre Dame University, but it may
be nothing more than a name for some young people, perhaps orphans, taken
under the University's wing.
[...]
>The French scientists of his day -Pascal, Descartes,Fermat, etc.
I think he and Descartes were students together and that the college
was Jesuit.
>met periodically at his residence
residence? :-) I had the impression it was a monastic cell -- dank,
small, ....
>Far from being an inquisitor,
Well, that was my little joke -- guilt by association. Do you think
I'm doing him a dis-service? Maybe I should call him a "hater-of-
magiciens" or something?
>Mersenne favored free interchange of scientific results and counselled
>Descartes on how to avoid trouble with the authorities.
He also defended Galileo!
>He disliked Fludd because the latter reminded him of
>those who tended to defraud school-boys when he was a student at LaFleche.
Now this sounds interesting. And it was LaFleche that was Jesuit and
where he studied with Descartes. But you say "school-boys". LaFleche
wasn't a college? Perhaps in those days a college was for teenagers?
>Mersenne called all these people "magiciens" who he saw as the very
>opposite of those who relied on scientific measurement. By contemporary
>accounts, Mersenne was a very amiable person
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This surprises me! I never envisioned him as a very nice person.
>much interested in scientific progress.
>The "Dict. of Scientific Biography" has an authoritative article on him.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Do you know the publisher? Do you know of any California libraries that
have it?
Do you have any idea as to the origin of the name "Mersenne"? A net.friend
has suggested that is may come from Old French 'mers' (goods, merchandise),
but he counsels not to bet on it.
Thanks!!!!!!!
--Luke
From: "Joseph E. Houle" <jehoule@worldnet.att.net>
To: "luke welsh" <luke@scruznet.com>
Subject: Marin Mersenne
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 10:22:36 -0500
Dear Luke,
Thanks for your prompt reply. I was trained as a mathematician, but spent
twenty years as a dean of faculty at [permission pending]. When I left that job
some students gave me an encyclopedia of music and in leafing through that
I found that MM was just as famous in music as in math & science. There
are several doctoral dissertations on his theories in music. I am now fully
retired and MM as a personality remains interesting to me. Dear's book on
MM and the development of modern science out of scholastic and renaissance
schools remains the best and the latest. I have heard of another work that
would shed light on the relationship between MM and Galileo -- both
personal and scientific. To my knowledge, it has not been published and it
is possible that the authors are deceased. Apparently MM wrote to Galileo
and never received a response. MM thought that Galileo went beyond the
results of his experiments and MM reproached him for that. If Galileo had
listened to MM we can speculate that the relationship between G and the
Church would have turned out differently. In a narrow sense, my
understanding is that G was condemned for asserting that he had proved
something, and there is at least some evidence that G's discussion had the
kind of flaw that MM had pointed out. I am not an expert on that, however.
The group of Minims at Notre Dame may well be a like minded student club or
even the math club that chose the name out of irony. I think MM would have
liked that. I visited the Minim House in Rome several years ago. There
are not many more than 100 or so left. They are, nevertheless, very highly
esteemed in the church. They were favored by French royalty and for many
years had the Church of Trinita dei Monti at the Spanish Steps in Rome.
That church was the church that "belonged" to the French King. In1990 there
were two Spanish-speaking minims in a church in Los Angeles. I have no
idea whether there are any still in the US. As friars, they tend to be
very mobile and go where the sprit leads them without regard, even, to the
continuation of their religious order. Their long-standing spirit seems to
foster humility and, indeed, amiability. They were known in France as "les
bons hommes."
MM probably did not know Descartes at La Fleche. I believe Descartes was
several years younger. Yes, La Fleche was one of the first Jesuit schools.
Much as today -- or yesterday -- the younger teachers were fresh from the
Universities. That made for a lively atmosphere. La Fleche was much like
the classical Jesuit secondary school in today's cities. It was an
altogether new type of establishment. The students lived in town,not at
the school. It is thus that they were vulnerable to all kinds of
charlatans. MM was very much against any kind of cheating -- especially in
scientific measurement. Of course lots of the advances in science came
from people who could make a conceptual leap ahead of the data. That MM
could not do.
While their personal space was truly minimal, the Minim house in Paris must
have had comfortable -- for the times -- public rooms. It was located two
streets from the Palais Royal in the Marais section of Paris on a street
that is still called "rue des Minimes." As favorites of the French royalty
who often subvened the publication of MM's work, the Minim house was
destroyed during the French Revolution.
While respectful of Church authority, MM knew his way around Rome and not
only managed to work around anything that would get in his way but also
counselled others,especially Descartes. on how to do the same.
The Dict. of Sci. Bio. can usually be found in the reference section of most
public and school libraries.
I do not know the origin of the name Mersenne. At that time in France many
names had lost any kind of meaning. MM's father, by the way, seems to
have been some kind of estate agent superintending farmers who held their
land in fief. Marin was a relatively common first name.
Only very large research libraries have MM's collected correspondence. It
runs to sixteen -- I think-- very large volumes and really merits the
over-used adjective "awesome."
Good luck in all your endeavors. Joe.